Wel-Met Camps Memories Forums  

Go Back   Wel-Met Camps Memories Forums > The Sunday Forum
Memories Forum Home Quick User Guide Register Wel-Met Photos Find Other Members Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-12-2006, 09:02 AM   #31
Rich Siegel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Teaneck, NJ
Posts: 25
deflecting away from the issue

Where do I even suggest that there were no gas chambers? What I stated- very clearly- is that I have no opinion on holocaust revisionism and its claims. I also stated very clearly what its claims are- which- in having no opinion- are NOT my claims. I have done very thorough research on the Israel/Palestine situation. I have not done very thorough research on the holocaust. I know how my family members died. I know enough about the revisionists to be able to state that that no one= at least no one with any credibility- is claiming that Nazi's did not kill Jews in large numbers- I know that it is historical fact that Nazi's DID kill Jews in large numbers. I know that holocaust revisionists are NOT denying this- that what they are denying is the actual claimed number of 6 million, and the gas chamber issue. If I were to tell you that I knew for sure whether or not the revisionists have a legitimate claim here I would be lying, because I have not done the research- just as I do not speak Mongolian and do not know how to perform brain surgery- it is simply not an area of my expertise. The Israel/Palestine conflict IS an area of my expertise. Since you are evidently looking for a way to dismiss me outright, you may do so by deliberately making an incorrect determination that I am a "holocaust denier" or you can be fair and look at exactly what I have said.

-Rich Siegel
Rich Siegel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2006, 10:34 AM   #32
Michael Ohlstein
Registered User
 
Michael Ohlstein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Old Brookville, NY
Posts: 199
You said....

"Why don't you prove to me that the number 6 million is accurate, and prove to me that there were gas chambers."

I just want to know if you are questioning the existence of gas chambers.
Michael Ohlstein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2006, 11:02 AM   #33
Rich Siegel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Teaneck, NJ
Posts: 25
Gas chambers

Here's what you are doing: You are trying to make me into a holocaust denier so that you can dismiss my arguments outright with regard to the Arab-Israeli conflict. You are deflecting the issue we were discussing by bringing in a tangential issue and in doing so trying to make me out to be a crazy and offensive person so that you can have a very good excuse to dismiss my very good, historically sound, and morally unimpeachable, support for the Palestinian cause.

I do not know if there were gas chambers or not. I have never been to Auschwitz or anywhere in Poland. I have been to Germany briefly but never to a concentration camp. I have not researched this subject. I have certainly been told that there were gas chambers. I have met many holocaust survivors and heard many first-hand stories. So I know that 1) the Nazi's killed many Jews, and 2) there were also many survivors. I have never met anyone who has first-hand experience with regard to having seen gas chambers in operation or witnessed murder in gas chambers.

With regard to people who say there were no gas chambers, and who also say that the number 6 million is an exaggeration, what limited amount I have read on this subject indicates clearly that they are not claiming that the Nazi's did not kill large numbers of Jews. They absolutely do acknowledge that this happened. They are contesting these two points.

Having openly admiited that I have not thoroughly researched the subject of holocaust revisionism, what I am gleaning from this discussion is that no one participating in it has done any real research on either holocaust revisionism or the Arab-Israel conflict. What is happening in this discussion is a lot of bullying- a lot of opinions without basis- a lot of throwing around the usual myths- and a lot of judging anyone who doesn't accept myths at face value, all of which is exactly what I expected. This is what contemporary Jewish culture as come to: Think like us, accept what we accept, don't examine anything, or if you do your're a goddamn traitor- a "self-hating Jew".

Did you get that? I don't know if there were gas chambers or not. I am open to any real proof from either claim. The same for the 6 million figure.

-Rich Siegel
Rich Siegel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2006, 11:44 AM   #34
Rich Siegel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Teaneck, NJ
Posts: 25
notice early postings lost

I was just reviewing this discussion and, scrolling all the way down, noticed that the beginning of the discussion is no longer posted- at least two or three early posts have been deleted. I thought that once posted items remained in place indefinitely. Anybody know why they were deleted? This is important to me as I am sending friends to this site to get an understanding of the Zionist mind- so it's important that the thread be in place from the beginning.

-Rich Siegel
Rich Siegel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2006, 04:47 PM   #35
Michael Ohlstein
Registered User
 
Michael Ohlstein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Old Brookville, NY
Posts: 199
Posters are allowed to edit and/or erase their posts.

Now, as to 'what I'm doing'......

I'm simply trying to determine what approach to take.

I've never been to Hawaii, but I believe that it exists. Never having been to Poland is no excuse for denying the truth about what took place there.

While I'm sure that there was some sintillating discussion today between Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, David Duke, and the knights of the round table, but most of the educated world see these guys as clowns.

So.....if you're throwing in with them, then we really don't have much else to discuss, and I reiterate my suggestion that you seek help. But if we can find some common ground upon which to stand, we can continue the discussion.

Last edited by Michael Ohlstein; 12-12-2006 at 08:32 PM.
Michael Ohlstein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2006, 07:43 PM   #36
Steve Alter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Forest Hills, NY
Posts: 47
"This is important to me as I am sending friends to this site to get an understanding of the Zionist mind- so it's important that the thread be in place from the beginning."

IT IS CLEAR THAT RICH SIEGEL IS USING THIS WEB SITE FOR A PURPOSE OTHER THAN WHAT IT IS INTENDED FOR. HIS INTENTION IS APPARENTLY NOT MEANT IN THE SPIRIT OF DEBATE BETWEEN OLD FRIENDS.

WOULD ANYONE CALL THIS JEW-BAITING? I SUGGEST THAT OTHERS STOP RESPONDING TO HIM, LEAST THEY BE USED AS EXAMPLES OF THE "ZIONIST MIND"

I MADE THAT DECISION SEVERAL MONTHS AGO.
Steve Alter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2006, 12:26 AM   #37
Rich Siegel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Teaneck, NJ
Posts: 25
my library on the subject/ signing off

"I've never been to Hawaii, but I believe that it exists. Never having been to Poland is no excuse for denying the truth about what took place there."

The above statement is completely illogical and ridiculous.

My statement- the one that Steve Alter took as his cue to rescue this web-site from what at least started out as a legitimate discussion- was sarcastic- nothing more, and Steve's statement that I am using this web-site in a way other than its intent is inflammatory. There was already a discussion on this topic before I joined in. I read the posts, found them highly objectionable, and so made my contribution.

There is something that's going on which is not legit- and that is that someone has removed my earliest post(s) from the beginning of this list. I did not do it.

I'm not interested in wasting any more time here with people who pretend they know what they're talking about when they're just re-hasing old myths and don't even have the inegrity to crack open a book on the subject. I don't need to spend time in the kind of nasty vibe that this discussion is degenerating into.

I'm listing the titles of materials- books & CD's- that are in my personal library, and that I can recommend, below. There are numerous titles that I can't recommend, such as "Exodus" by Leon Uris- a novel which is fiction but which somehow people take as non-fiction, "From Time Immemorial" by Joan Peters in which she manufactures statistics out of whole cloth (proven by Norman Finkelstein), and "The Case for Israel" by Alan Dershowitz, in which he plagiarizes Peters. Also not recommended are the "Idiot's Guide" to the conflict by Mitchell Bard, who is the real idiot- not the reader- there are a few others, the names escape me at the moment. Of the materials listed below, you will notice that many of the names of the authors are Jewish- and in fact there are works here by Jews from Israel, the USA, Canada, Britain, and Iraq- maybe a few more places. I am not alone in my views- and not alone among Jews- far from it- and there's a good reason for it!

If anyone would care to EDUCATE himself on the issue, we might actually be able to have an intelligent conversation. Until that time I am signing off.

-Rich Siegel

Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi, "Original Sins"

Phyllis Bennis, "Understanding the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict: A Primer"

Ronit Chacham, "Breaking Ranks: Refusing to Serve in the West Bank and Gaza"

Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle"

Charles Enderlin, "Shattered Dreams"

Paul Findley (former Illinois Congressman), "They Dare to Speak Out: People and Institutions Confront Israel's Lobby"

Norman G. Finkelstein, "Beyond Chutzpah: On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History"

Norman G. Finkelstein, "The Holocaust Industry"

Norman G. Finkelstein, "Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict"

Amira Hass, "Reporting from Ramallah"

ISM, "Peace Under Fire"

Jews for Justice in the Middle East, "The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict"

Staughton Lynd, Sam Bahour, Alice Lynd, "Homeland: Oral Histories of Palestine and Palestinians"

Daniel McGowan, Marc H. Ellis, "Remembering Deir Yassin: The Future of Israel and Palestine"

Benny Morris, "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947 - 1949"

Benny Morris, "Righteous Victims"

Ilan Pappe, "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine"

Mazim Qumsiyeh, "Sharing the Ladn of Canaan"

Eugene L. Rogan, Avi Shlaim, "The War for Palestine"

Jacqueline Rose, "The Question of Zion"

John Rose, "The Myths of Zionism"

Edward W. Said, "From Oslo to Iraq and the Roadmap"

Edward W. Said, Christopher Hitchens, "Blaming the Victims"

Adam Shatz, "Prophets Outcast: A Century of Dissident Jewish Writings about Zionism and Israel"

Michel Warschawski, "On the Border"

Eibie Weizfeld, "The End of Zionism and the Liberation of the Jewish People"




Films/Videos:

Hany Abu-Assad, "Paradise Now" (Academy award Nominee)

Dahna Abourahme, "Until When..."

Modammed Bakri "Jenin Jenin"

Andrew Courtney, Emily Perry, "The Israeli Wall in Palestinian Lands"

Rebecca Glotfelty, "Sucha Normal Thing"

Dave Lippman, "Star of Goliath"

James Longley, "Gaza Strip"

Mai Masri, "Children of Fire"
Rich Siegel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2006, 07:11 AM   #38
Rich Siegel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Teaneck, NJ
Posts: 25
one more book

Left out an important one- from another Jewish author/historian: Alfred Lilienthal, "What Price Israel". Don't miss that one, as I know you all are going to research this subject with integrity, and not simply rely on what you've been told all your lives! -Rich Siegel
Rich Siegel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2006, 08:39 AM   #39
Michael Ohlstein
Registered User
 
Michael Ohlstein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Old Brookville, NY
Posts: 199
None of your posts have been deleted, but the apparent paranoia seems consistent with your demeanor....
Michael Ohlstein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2006, 09:01 AM   #40
Rich Siegel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Teaneck, NJ
Posts: 25
no paranoia

I am a computer novice- no paranoia- just didn't understand why the older posts did not appear. Then noticed that this thread is divided into two pages. So- you are quite correct- nothing has been deleted. I apologize for having stated that someone deleted my posts- indeed no one has done so.

But here's a more important issue than my apparent paranoia: Has anyone who has been contributing to this discussion read even one book on the list I posted below? Have you seen the play "My Name is Rachel Corrie"? I have an extra ticket for Sunday night- for free- if anyone's interested (in New York).

OR- do you just masturbate on this issue? which is an apt characterization to the "debate" I read before I began posting- members of an all-Jewish group working out the finer details of self-delusion where no possible "enemy of our people" could object- or so you thought! Do you read Peters and Dershowitz to give yourselves comfort? Do you know that Norman Finkelstein- a fine and thorough scholar/historian if there ever was one- and an American Jew like us- has thoroughly discredited both of them? Will you insult him the way you have insulted me- and discredit him based on what you've heard without even reading him?

OK I'm outa' here. I'll check back and see if anyone wants the ticket.

-Rich
Rich Siegel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2006, 07:50 PM   #41
David Fried
 
David Fried's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 208
Yes , I think they just concluded a meeting of the Zionist Propaganda machine in Tehran today.
David Fried is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2006, 07:11 AM   #42
Rich Siegel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Teaneck, NJ
Posts: 25
not taking the bait

Whether 6 million people actually died, or whether the accurate number is 2 miillion or 10 million, whether there actually were gas chambers as claimed, or whether the means of the murder of large numbers of people was something other than gas chambers, the holocaust, if it has any relevance to the current situation in israel, is actually a call to humility and tolerance. The history of Zionism and the state of Israel has been anything but that; instead it has been about racist nationalist ethnic cleansing, and as such has been the manifestation of the most disgraceful reaction to anti-Semitism and later, to the holocaust imaginable. Now I really am signing off!

-Rich Siegel
Rich Siegel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2009, 01:08 AM   #43
Rich Siegel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Teaneck, NJ
Posts: 25
my new song/video "In Palestine"

"In Palestine: Two Jewish Songwriters Write a Song for Palestine"

On Vimeo, high def, about 12 minutes long: http://vimeo.com/6630724

On Youtube, in two parts, about 6 minutes long each:

Part 1, Dedication and Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1x2axqjhI6g

Part 2, The Songwriters speak: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojv1F...eature=channel

There is no charge to watch the video on either of these web-sites.


For audio download, pay what you want, minimum $1, 20% goes to charities that help Palestinian children:

http://www.richsiegel.bandcamp.com
Rich Siegel is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Israeli Arab Conflict Docbrett Current Memories Forum 12 07-26-2006 10:44 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:16 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.